# Fortran returns to top 20 TIOBE index **URL:** \ **Category:** Advocacy\ **Created:** [April 14, 2021, 7:30am UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069 "2021-04-14T07:30:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![vmagnin](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/fortran-lang.discourse.group/vmagnin/32/28_2.png) [@vmagnin](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/u/vmagnin)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 8:21am UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069/41 "2021-09-15T08:21:16Z")
Two comments about Fortran last TIOBE ranking in tech media: > On its side, Fortran keeps on coming back to the front of the scene. If it loses a few positions compared to its July ranking, the language is now in 17th place, which allows it to gain 20 places in one year (37th in September 2020). > [Classement des langages populaires : Python sur le point de devenir n°1 devant C](https://www.blogdumoderateur.com/classement-langages-populaires-python-numero-un-devant-c/) > Fortran’s re-emergence as a top 20 language is notable. Just in July 2020, Tiobe ranked it as the 50th most popular language. But earlier this year, Fortran shot up to the 20th spot in Tiobe’s index. > Fortran, designed at IBM in the 1950s, remains popular for coding on the world’s most powerful supercomputers. However, [some US Fortran standards committee members think](https://www.zdnet.com/article/this-old-programming-language-is-suddenly-hot-again-but-its-future-is-still-far-from-certain/) the language is under threat from other languages eating into domains Fortran historically performed well in. The catch for Fortran is that developing new features also risks breaking old code. > [Programming languages: Python is on the verge of another big step forward | ZDNET](https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-python-is-on-the-verge-of-another-big-step-forward/) ---
**Author:** ![Federchen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Federchen](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/u/Federchen)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 10:40am UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069/42 "2021-10-05T10:40:58Z")
I think TIOBE did already change it’s parameter settings for the language ratings. It might be less the popularity of a programming language in favor of the demand of a language type. And if they refer to Wikipedia, it might be [Fortran’s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortran) ‘native parallel computing capabilities (Coarray Fortran 2008/2018)’ that could play a role for Fortran’s high ranking yet. Notice: We’re about to enter the exascale (hardware) era with effects not limited to classical HPC. [https://marijuanapy.com/tiobe-index-includes-programming-language-properties-in-the-ranking/](https://marijuanapy.com/tiobe-index-includes-programming-language-properties-in-the-ranking/) > The monthly TIOBE Programming Community Index will in future take into account new parameters when rating the popularity of programming languages. The plan is obviously to track the properties of languages ​​such as their paradigms (for example functional or object-oriented) and type systems (such as static, dynamic or weakly typed). To break down these properties, TIOBE wants to refer to Wikipedia, according to Paul Jansen, CEO of TIOBE Software, and the index should also look at the demand for language types. ---
**Author:** ![vmagnin](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/fortran-lang.discourse.group/vmagnin/32/28_2.png) [@vmagnin](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/u/vmagnin)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2021, 7:38am UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069/43 "2021-10-06T07:38:23Z")
Here is described the _TIOBE Programming Community Index Definition_: [https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/programming-languages-definition/](https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/programming-languages-definition/) It is based on the results obtained with the query `+" programming"` in 25 search engines. Note that most of these engines are Google and Amazon engines in different countries. But there is also the English Wikipedia. Fortran is 18th in the [October TIOBE Index](https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/) with 1.08% (it was 17th in September with 1.01%). It is now [above 1.0% since June](https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/fortran/). ---
**Author:** ![certik](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/fortran-lang.discourse.group/certik/32/4_2.png) [@certik](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/u/certik)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2021, 4:07pm UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069/44 "2021-10-06T16:07:15Z")
Here is the current graph: ![Screen Shot 2021-10-06 at 10.03.57 AM](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/free1/uploads/fortran_lang/original/1X/d0f1424378084054ae9d303c9afb7fc427fe2840.png) It’s still balancing at the level of the peak from 2005. If it solidly overtakes it, then we might have something. ---
**Author:** ![Beliavsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba8739/32.png) [@Beliavsky](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/u/Beliavsky)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2021, 3:08pm UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069/45 "2021-10-08T15:08:37Z")
Reading a blog post [ Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer](https://www.simplethread.com/20-things-ive-learned-in-my-20-years-as-a-software-engineer/) that was [upvoted](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28797485) on Hacker News, I saw this: > ### 14. Look for technological sharks > > Old technologies that have stuck around are [sharks, not dinosaurs](https://www.simplethread.com/relational-databases-arent-dinosaurs-theyre-sharks/). They solve problems so well that they have survived the rapid changes that occur constantly in the technology world. Don’t bet against these technologies, and replace them only if you have a very good reason. These tools won’t be flashy, and they won’t be exciting, but they will get the job done without a lot of sleepless nights. Fortran is a shark 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![vmagnin](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/fortran-lang.discourse.group/vmagnin/32/28_2.png) [@vmagnin](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/u/vmagnin)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2021, 3:33pm UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069/46 "2021-10-08T15:33:10Z")
🦈 ---
**Author:** ![certik](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/fortran-lang.discourse.group/certik/32/4_2.png) [@certik](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/u/certik)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2021, 4:13pm UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069/47 "2021-10-08T16:13:42Z")
The other way to understand the phrase > Old technologies that have stuck around are sharks, not dinosaurs. is the [Lindy effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect), by which “the future life expectancy of some non-perishable things, like a technology or an idea, is proportional to their current age.”. So Rust is 10 years old, I bet it will be around in another 10 years, but in 30 years? Who knows. Fortran is 65 years old and still around, so I would say the chance is decent Fortran will be around in 30 years. Just based on this heuristics. My only comment is: > These tools won’t be flashy, and they won’t be exciting Actually I think they can be. With proper modern tooling if the old technology genuinely (objectively) becomes better than younger technologies, people will get excited about it again. Currently Fortran is better in a sense of easier to write and still usually performing (although not always…), but the tooling around it is so bad that it cancels this slight advantage completely for many use cases. However, by fixing the tooling _and_ compilers to ensure Fortran is always the best performing, on any platform and easiest to write and use (dependencies, interactive/non-interactive use, …) — then we are talking. And I think that is doable and my goal. ---
**Author:** ![FortranFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@FortranFan](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/u/FortranFan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2021, 7:44pm UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069/48 "2021-10-08T19:44:18Z")
> [@certik](#): > > Currently Fortran is better in a sense of easier to write and still usually performing (although not always…), but the tooling around it is so bad that it cancels this slight advantage completely for many use cases. However, by fixing the tooling _and_ compilers to ensure Fortran is always the best performing, on any platform and easiest to write and use (dependencies, interactive/non-interactive use, …) — then we are talking. And I think that is doable and my goal. Excellent points, agree with you completely here. My other point is that with just a few enhancements (see this [**thread**](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/high-performance-fortran-hpf-history-and-lessons/367/22)) to the **language standard also** , Fortran can verily become **feature-complete** for scientific and technical computing. And it will pay rich dividends for the next several decades. I truly wish the standard can get things such as Fortran-suitable Generics, Exception Handling, etc. included ASAP. Then with improved tooling and the ecosystem and standard facilities, Fortran can be at the top as the \*_lingua franca_ of scientific and technical computing. ---
**Author:** ![fortran4r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9de0a6/32.png) [@fortran4r](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/u/fortran4r)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2021, 11:03pm UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069/49 "2021-10-14T23:03:05Z")
The RedMonk programming language ranking seems to make more sense. > **[The RedMonk Programming Language Rankings: June 2021](https://redmonk.com/sogrady/2021/08/05/language-rankings-6-21/)** > > This iteration of the RedMonk Programming Languages is brought to you by Microsoft. Developers build the future. Microsoft supports you in any language and Java is no exception; we love it. We offer the best Java dev tools, infrastructure, and modern... ---
**Author:** ![vmagnin](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/fortran-lang.discourse.group/vmagnin/32/28_2.png) [@vmagnin](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/u/vmagnin)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 6:39am UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069/50 "2021-10-15T06:39:21Z")
> [@fortran4r](#): > > The RedMonk programming language ranking seems to make more sense. In this ranking, the position of Fortran is very stable for the last 2 years. See the author’s posts: [https://redmonk.com/sogrady/author/sogrady/](https://redmonk.com/sogrady/author/sogrady/) ---
**Author:** ![fortran4r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9de0a6/32.png) [@fortran4r](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/u/fortran4r)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 3:41pm UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069/51 "2021-10-15T15:41:06Z")
Combining the Tiobe index and the RedMonk index may be a more accurate way to measure Fortran’s popularity. But that will still miss the activities in the Fortran forums, including the disclosure. I looked at the Fortran tagged questions in Stack Overflow. The dude called Vladimir F has answered so many questions. Kudos to him. ---
**Author:** ![milancurcic](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/fortran-lang.discourse.group/milancurcic/32/2_2.png) [@milancurcic](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/u/milancurcic)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 4:41pm UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069/52 "2021-10-15T16:41:28Z")
CC @VladimirF. I learned much about Fortran from Vladimir’s SO answers and posts elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![zaikunzhang](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/fortran-lang.discourse.group/zaikunzhang/32/785_2.png) [@zaikunzhang](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/u/zaikunzhang)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 5:00pm UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069/53 "2021-10-15T17:00:41Z")
> [@fortran4r](#): > > I looked at the Fortran tagged questions in Stack Overflow. The dude called Vladimir F has answered so many questions. Kudos to him. > [@milancurcic](#): > > CC @VladimirF. I learned much about Fortran from Vladimir’s SO answers and posts elsewhere. Almost all my questions asked about Fortran on SO got responses from @VladimirF and Ian Bush (is he here?). I also had the privilege of being responded to by Dr. Fortran @sblionel. I have learned a lot from them, and of course from everyone here on the discourse. Many thanks! ---
**Author:** ![zaikunzhang](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/fortran-lang.discourse.group/zaikunzhang/32/785_2.png) [@zaikunzhang](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/u/zaikunzhang)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 5:16pm UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069/54 "2021-10-15T17:16:07Z")
> [@fortran4r](#): > > Combining the Tiobe index and the RedMonk index may be a more accurate way to measure Fortran’s popularity. But that will still miss the activities in the Fortran forums, including the disclosure. It seems that the [Top Programming Languages](https://spectrum.ieee.org/top-programming-languages/) by IEEE is also a quite trustworthy ranking. Fortran ranks 25 in the 2021 edition. I hope to see it mounts steadily with the efforts of the community. ---
**Author:** ![fortran4r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9de0a6/32.png) [@fortran4r](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/u/fortran4r)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2021, 5:32pm UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069/55 "2021-10-15T17:32:04Z")
yeah, this one seems more comprehensive and less biased. ---
**Author:** ![Beliavsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba8739/32.png) [@Beliavsky](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/u/Beliavsky)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 8:26pm UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069/56 "2021-10-22T20:26:01Z")
At Open Hub you can rank languages by projects, contributors, and commits. They divide Fortran into free-format and fixed format: #### [Fortran (Free-format)](https://www.openhub.net/languages/fortranfree) **Projects** 1,133 **Contributors** 5,452 **Commits** 286,146 #### [Fortran (Fixed-format)](https://www.openhub.net/languages/fortranfixed) **Projects** 938 **Contributors** 3,229 **Commits** 52,258 Since they divide the Fortran community like this, the ranking of either Fortran sub-group is low. The numbers do suggest caution in removing fixed format from the language. I wonder why many projects persist with fixed format. ---
**Author:** ![MarDie](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/fortran-lang.discourse.group/mardie/32/54_2.png) [@MarDie](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/u/MarDie)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 9:57am UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069/57 "2021-10-23T09:57:39Z")
It is interesting to see that the number of projects is similar but the number of commits to is about 5 times higher for free format. ---
**Author:** ![vmagnin](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/fortran-lang.discourse.group/vmagnin/32/28_2.png) [@vmagnin](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/u/vmagnin)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 5:59pm UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069/58 "2021-11-07T17:59:35Z")
**Fun fact** Is Fortran falling or rising in the [TIOBE Index](https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/)? 🤔 The more it rises (rating), the more it falls (ranking), or vice-versa 🙃 | Month | Ranking | Rating | | --- | --- | --- | | Sept. 2021 | 17th | 1.01% | | Oct. 2021 | 18th | 1.08% | | Nov. 2021 | 19th | 1.19% | See the curve: [https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/fortran/](https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/fortran/) ---
**Author:** ![certik](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/fortran-lang.discourse.group/certik/32/4_2.png) [@certik](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/u/certik)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 6:21pm UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069/59 "2021-11-07T18:21:39Z")
This is probably our last month in top 20. Enjoy it while it lasts!! Here is the current graph: [Fortran | TIOBE - The Software Quality Company](https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/fortran/) ![Screen Shot 2021-11-07 at 11.17.56 AM](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/free1/uploads/fortran_lang/original/2X/0/0d5f3337d9fb9119a90a4d419950e8c247b530f8.png) According to it, the last point is at 1.19%, while the peak in 2005 is 1.06%. We have now overtaken all the peaks in 2005, 2008 and 2015-18. I don’t know if this is some signal, or still noise. ---
**Author:** ![ivanpribec](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/fortran-lang.discourse.group/ivanpribec/32/3290_2.png) [@ivanpribec](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/u/ivanpribec)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 6:38pm UTC](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069/60 "2021-11-07T18:38:57Z")
Judging by past two years, the winter months (on the northern hemisphere) have been quite productive for Fortran-lang. I think we have the momentum necessary to keep the upwards trend. [Previous page](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069.md?page=2) [Next page](https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/fortran-returns-to-top-20-tiobe-index/1069.md?page=4)